Curse

Xpl0iter · Dec 28, 2006, 04:09 AM // 04:09

I really do not care if avg player would understand this or not Gimme

i know what your trying to say, but the fact remains a fact. things can easily be done without eles. People are just used to them.

They do not know how this game's mechanics work, which is why they would call you noob even if you ARE right.

This is why i hate to do PUGs.

I will be very slow in replying now, already in DOA.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 28, 2006, 04:13 AM // 04:13

My point is, for a pug, eles are probably the best option. With the right 8 players, I could run pretty much anything and own pretty much anything I have experience with. Try running massive warrior damage in a pug. If you get beyond the first mob, I'd be surprised (oh em gee why n/mo and not monk??? YOU WANT ME WITH 16 WEAPON MASTERY!?!?!?!). My point is elementalists still work rather well, and for purposes of pick up groups with little or no communication, are the best option.

Xpl0iter · Dec 28, 2006, 04:20 AM // 04:20

in my theory, eles work because of the lack of knowledge that exists within avg pugs.
It still doesn't change the fact that their skills are underpowered ^_^.

MS, 25 mana, exhaustion, 5 second cast, 60 recharge..... how much dmg and whats the AOE size again? pathetic ^_^ thats just one of the examples.

Enko · Dec 28, 2006, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

Well, im a big ele player (fow armor 4,7 mil xp) and i hate SF as well, if you play in HA the only build what can kill this is 6 melandrus dervish, or if everybody use frigid armor... this skill is overpovered and yes it needs a big big nerf.

umm, how is it overpowered in HA? I don't see any SF teams getting to HoH at all anymore. If people can manage to beat SF in Random Arena, I doubt it will be a problem in HA. or are you talking about the period when NF was first released and people first found Searing Flames? That was pretty much the only time that SF was successful in HoH.

This skill isn't overpowered as Burning is a requirement to get the damage and there are plenty of condition removal skills in the game. A mesmer or a daze ranger will shutdown a SF ele easily and those are both heavily played professions in PvP.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 28, 2006, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Yea. It will shutdown one SF ele. This is out of 4 in HA, or 6 in GvG. The reasons that SF is beatable but still annoying and nerf-needed in PvP can be found in Gladiator's Arena (which has recently increasing the amount of open SF threads to 5 by my count, omfg one thread plzkthxbai).

The issue is not whether fire eles are pathetic, but whether they are the best AoE in the game. The answer is yes (excluding b/p groups). This leads to the question of whether AoE is the best damage in the game. The answer is not always, but it is the best to use for a pug. That pretty much sums it up, they're the best for their intended purpose. I'm aware that this post does not flow well at all and probably makes very little sense, I'll post something more clear in the morning when I'm not tired.

ubermancer · Dec 28, 2006, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

in my theory, eles work because of the lack of knowledge that exists within avg pugs.
It still doesn't change the fact that their skills are underpowered ^_^.

MS, 25 mana, exhaustion, 5 second cast, 60 recharge..... how much dmg and whats the AOE size again? pathetic ^_^ thats just one of the examples.

Um, right. I wasnt going to reply till I saw someone bashing MS.

You are aware that it hits three times (making it more energy efficient then fireball in terms of raw damage), and causes KD, right? Which can often mean trapping several foes (even with its poor AOE) for several seconds, unable to do anything. Not to mention you can do some craziness like...

Mantra of Concentration / Resolve
Glyph of Renewal
*wait a couple seconds, then aggro*
Meteor Shower (begin casting <10 seconds after GoR was cast)
Glyph of Renewal
Meteor Shower
Meteor Shower

All the while your good team mates are nuking the hell out of your target (with ideally one of those nukes being Deep Freeze).

The ability to single out a small area and assure the destruction of everything in it is the power of Meteor Shower. The small area is all you need, since any *competent* PVE Warrior knows how to group casters. (and no matter what skills you run, bunched enemies are easier to kill then spread out enemies)

Can you imagine 4 E/A running Glyph of Sacrifice, Meteor Shower, Assassin's Promise, Death's Charge, Inferno in freakin PVE? [hint, that strategy makes fights in FOW take <10 seconds]

Have you considered the application of MS+Incendiary Bonds+Fireball?

I cant believe I am actually defending Meteor Shower. If you dont see its use and consider yourself a good PVE player, I beg of you - play more PVP, those guys need the Fame.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 28, 2006, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

Um, right. I wasnt going to reply till I saw someone bashing MS.

You are aware that it hits three times (making it more energy efficient then fireball in terms of raw damage), and causes KD, right? Which can often mean trapping several foes (even with its poor AOE) for several seconds, unable to do anything. Not to mention you can do some craziness like...

Mantra of Concentration / Resolve
Glyph of Renewal
*wait a couple seconds, then aggro*
Meteor Shower (begin casting <10 seconds after GoR was cast)
Glyph of Renewal
Meteor Shower
Meteor Shower

All the while your good team mates are nuking the hell out of your target (with ideally one of those nukes being Deep Freeze).

The ability to single out a small area and assure the destruction of everything in it is the power of Meteor Shower. The small area is all you need, since any *competent* PVE Warrior knows how to group casters. (and no matter what skills you run, bunched enemies are easier to kill then spread out enemies)

Can you imagine 4 E/A running Glyph of Sacrifice, Meteor Shower, Assassin's Promise, Death's Charge, Inferno in freakin PVE? [hint, that strategy makes fights in FOW take <10 seconds]

Have you considered the application of MS+Incendiary Bonds+Fireball?

I cant believe I am actually defending Meteor Shower. If you dont see its use and consider yourself a good PVE player, I beg of you - play more PVP, those guys need the Fame.

meteor shower is a shitty skill that has poor DPS and the only thing it's good for is the knockdown. I've seen teams with 4 E/A in HA, and they're always terrible.

You know what else clears mobs in FoW in under 10 seconds? A good team.

We're treading into the domain of other threads that exist already, but I suggest you read Ensign's "Why Nuking Sucks" thread, play with a real team, then come back.

isamu kurosawa · Dec 28, 2006, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

I cant believe I am actually defending Meteor Shower. If you dont see its use and consider yourself a good PVE player, I beg of you - play more PVP, those guys need the Fame.

I'd pick an air ele over someone with MS and i consider myself a good PvE player, proven by the higher success rate of teams i create than those of others playing nothing but the same old cookie cutter crap.

S_Serpent · Dec 28, 2006, 10:01 AM // 10:01

SF hardly makes it past round 2 in HA, lol must by such a LEET skill

People are blind to the pathetic nerfs eles have indured since the beginning. They are nowhere near to what the are proclaimed to be in the manual of the game. The Fire line has only SF as the only balanced skill and you still need GG to gain energy from the burning conditional. AoE is tops, yeah right as the primary AoE dmg class ele where nerved to oblivion with the AoE nerf so long ago. Before NF and SF you hardly saw any ele in HA (and don't talk about a suicidale starburster). So ele had to do support: wards, blind bot or runner = WOOT that is the advertisement of the ele in the manual I DON'T THINK SO!

if SF is nerved then for the sake of balance every single fire skill will need a buff! Or the fire eles can go hide under a rock again. I stopped playing fire ele since the AoE nerf because it made the fire ele pathetic. Only since nightfall I have started to play fire again because it gives the ele what it is supposed to do mass AoE pressure. But alas if the nerf hits I'll have to play support again or earth builds (then a crying Shiro can start making nerf the earth eles threads).

Thom Bangalter · Dec 28, 2006, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by S_Serpent

if SF is nerved then for the sake of balance every single fire skill will need a buff! Or the fire eles can go hide under a rock again.

This sums it up. Searing flames needs an adjustment so it isn't so rediculous when you have 3 people spamming it; the rest of the fire line has been needing a buff for quite some time.

You also must not have watched the double fame weekend; everyone was running multiple copies of it with thumpers to churn out the points.

To be honest I don't see why there are so many threads on it; it's getting nerfed, so deal with it.

S_Serpent · Dec 28, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

This sums it up. Searing flames needs an adjustment so it isn't so rediculous when you have 3 people spamming it; the rest of the fire line has been needing a buff for quite some time.

You also must not have watched the double fame weekend; everyone was running multiple copies of it with thumpers to churn out the points.

To be honest I don't see why there are so many threads on it; it's getting nerfed, so deal with it.

ok I have no problem with that, too bad I'll lose my fame gathering from beating those SF teams every single time in HA, but other teams and builds will come which my guildies and I shall defeat again (your either a whiner or an adapter - plz take our pick)

To many times those SF eles where shocked too have been whiped by us in mere 10 seconds or so. and actually I found quite a few very mature in there defeat congratulating us for the victory. Since that is how we try to congratulate a awesome build that defeats us too.

Blightfire · Dec 28, 2006, 12:03 PM // 12:03

There are so many counters to SF which people could have looked up on instead of whining on how SF should be nerfed. If enough people run it then i believe there is enough justification to run a counter... if everyone is using scissors then you should use rock, no?

Just look at how many groups that win halls are actually SF teams... SF isn't an I win button, it just makes Ele do what they're supposed to do, damage.

@Thom Bangalter
You are contradicting yourself here:
You tell people to read the thread Why nuking sucks, which I have, that gives numbers on how nukes do not do enough dmg outright/proper energy control. And here it is, the answer to that being searing flames and glowing gaze. Yet when it comes out it seems you are in support that searing flames is nerfed. Isn't searing flames just doing what the thread by ensign says elementalists should be able to do? If the rest of the fireline indeed gets buffed, everyone would just be whining about how it has to be nerfed instead of searing flames... and the cycle continues

ensoriki · Dec 28, 2006, 01:42 PM // 13:42

fire eles are a pve class, they deal in AOE, the fact that this thing allows them to be some middle-high tier pvp class is absurd,

searing flames just makes it so Fire eles are better at pvp (they werent Unplayable in pvp before -_-....mark of rodgart was a fine skill for pvp because of the degen

bah fires the pvp...
Water is a mix
Earth is a mix
Wind is more pvp oriented

Don't complain because a skill COULD be put in its place.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 28, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

The reason you roll SF teams in HA in under 10 seconds is because 99% of those teams have the intelligence of my dog. A good searing flames team that knows wtf is going on is pretty good, but of course, you see practically none of these. And again, there are plenty of counters to searing flames, the problem is that quite a few of them are searing flames specific. As to the people who continually say that you never saw eles in PvP before SF, you obviously do not PvP at all.

Francis Crawford · Dec 28, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

There are a whole lot of counters to SF that are SF-specific, granted. There are a whole lot more that AREN'T SF-specific. Good teams are not using SF to win anything. Bad teams that try are not having the mindless success of, say, IWAY.

What again is the genuine problem here???

Zaxan Razor · Dec 28, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Anet always seem kinda short sighted in their skill balances. While i agree with most skills that they 'nerf', i think the best idea would be to limit the amount of each profession in pvp teams:

So for instance, no more than 3 of each profession.

This would eliminate most of the ultra boring spike teams both in gvg and Ha. Tho i have to admit i havn't played HA for a long time now, around the release of factions.

But if this were implemented from the start, we wouldn't have had Iway, Ranger Spike, Obsidian Flame Spike, Foc spike..etc etc

Mouse at Large · Dec 28, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

By the logic of some of the posts, I would expect all aspects of PvE to be completely dominated bt SF ele teams. Open your eyes - IT'S NOT.

While we're at it, can I just put down a few markers of my own.......

I'd like Necros generally nerfed - all that degen kills me
Assassins and Warriors likewise for their overpowered slayage
oh, and Dervishes as well
Mesmers should be removed from the game entirely as should be all the Ranger interrupts
Monks and Rits can stay just as long as they freeze in place and don't run away from my AoE spells

Heaven forbid I should have to actually think how to deal with any of the above.

I'm still a glass cannon with 60 AL and no defensive buffs. If you look at the recent Wintersday Tournament, where teams were restricted to Core and Nightfall skills, by the logic of the pro-nerf brigade, a team stuffed full of SF eles should have walked it.....

Errrrrrr - didn't happen.

Q.E.D.

Xpl0iter · Dec 28, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50

[QUOTE=ubermancer]Um, right. I wasnt going to reply till I saw someone bashing MS.

You are aware that it hits three times (making it more energy efficient then fireball in terms of raw damage), and causes KD, right? Which can often mean trapping several foes (even with its poor AOE) for several seconds, unable to do anything. Not to mention you can do some craziness like...[/quoe]
I am well aware of MS and i have yet to see a PVP player who knows how to play pvp, Standing inside MS for 9 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

Mantra of Concentration / Resolve
Glyph of Renewal
*wait a couple seconds, then aggro*
Meteor Shower (begin casting <10 seconds after GoR was cast)
Glyph of Renewal
Meteor Shower
Meteor Shower

are you talking about pvp or Pve here?
if its pvp, kindly dont run that silly bar in pvp.
It will affect them once, after that, they will be parepared for you. ( unless they are retarded ofcourse )

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

All the while your good team mates are nuking the hell out of your target (with ideally one of those nukes being Deep Freeze).

that still will allow only one hit! Deepfreeze is 66% slow rate. Enough to talk out of Hits after ONE ms lands on your head. I am not sure if your doing your theory in paper here or trying to bash my head because of numbers.`

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

The ability to single out a small area and assure the destruction of everything in it is the power of Meteor Shower. The small area is all you need, since any *competent* PVE Warrior knows how to group casters. (and no matter what skills you run, bunched enemies are easier to kill then spread out enemies)

isin't tha twhat i have been ranting about since last 20 posts?
POSITIONING.
Regardless how stupid a team is or HOW small an AREA is. EVEN in RA, you have ENOUGH and i repeat, ENOUGH space to do spacing for MS.
Adjacent foes is NOTHING., That skill is OK in PVE, but NOT in PVP. Period!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

Can you imagine 4 E/A running Glyph of Sacrifice, Meteor Shower, Assassin's Promise, Death's Charge, Inferno in freakin PVE? [hint, that strategy makes fights in FOW take <10 seconds]

try that in DOA for me. The place that makes FoW looks like a Child's Play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

Have you considered the application of MS+Incendiary Bonds+Fireball?

I cant believe I am actually defending Meteor Shower. If you dont see its use and consider yourself a good PVE player, I beg of you - play more PVP, those guys need the Fame.

First and Most important, MS remains shitty regardless how u put it out for me.
Secondly, I DO NOT go out in PVE without MS ANY where, and If you notice the skill bars i have mentioned for ANY TEAM ever, My Bar always had a Glyph of Sac + MS in it.
Third MY BAR before SF Mostly been this:
FIreball, Incendiary, ROdgort's Invocation, MS, Arcane Echo, Glyph of SAC and DUal Atuunes.
I do not need Renewal Nuking when my Aoe's Range is a measely ADJACENT foe. I can walk out of MS in my sleep in PVP.
For PVP, i use MS for KnockDOWN and SF for Dmg Output.

We will go in numbers when we need to when the dmg output of SF and MS with Renewal needs be discussed.

If i EVER go in PVP, i beg you NOT to tell me to take fire bar in it which doesn't have SF in it, cause other skills have a pathetic recharge.
Renewal MS is not enough dmg + Hideous Cast time and a pathetic AOE.

My BAR for FoW is the one i listed above, those 8 skills. try them and see your dmg output when compared to Renewal MS. You will be Way more Flexible with whom you attempt to hit. There are times when you want to have MS droped on Monks and kill a mesmer with the rest of those skills in PVE.

Cast Arecane in advance, go do ur MS
then glyph sac and throw second ms, go incendiary and rodgorts and end up with fireball.

This simple setup will acompany every single meteor that you drop keeping a good dmg output, for AS LONG AS THEY ARE BUNCHED UP. But then, they are monsters who DO take dmg from nuke.

As thom suggested and i have been bashing same idea over and over, Check Why nuking Sucks. I told Gimme the VERY same thing in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by S_Serpent

SF hardly makes it past round 2 in HA, lol must by such a LEET skill

People are blind to the pathetic nerfs eles have indured since the beginning. They are nowhere near to what the are proclaimed to be in the manual of the game. The Fire line has only SF as the only balanced skill and you still need GG to gain energy from the burning conditional. AoE is tops, yeah right as the primary AoE dmg class ele where nerved to oblivion with the AoE nerf so long ago. Before NF and SF you hardly saw any ele in HA (and don't talk about a suicidale starburster). So ele had to do support: wards, blind bot or runner = WOOT that is the advertisement of the ele in the manual I DON'T THINK SO!

if SF is nerved then for the sake of balance every single fire skill will need a buff! Or the fire eles can go hide under a rock again. I stopped playing fire ele since the AoE nerf because it made the fire ele pathetic. Only since nightfall I have started to play fire again because it gives the ele what it is supposed to do mass AoE pressure. But alas if the nerf hits I'll have to play support again or earth builds (then a crying Shiro can start making nerf the earth eles

Very well said and Summarizes what EVER i have said in this thread

Been ranting to BUFF the fire line if one is going to NERF SF. Fire line is NO WAY Balanced. It is Underpowered which needs to be brought back up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme

The reason you roll SF teams in HA in under 10 seconds is because 99% of those teams have the intelligence of my dog. A good searing flames team that knows wtf is going on is pretty good, but of course, you see practically none of these. And again, there are plenty of counters to searing flames, the problem is that quite a few of them are searing flames specific. As to the people who continually say that you never saw eles in PvP before SF, you obviously do not PvP at all.

First of all, why are you taking side of those who do not have any intellegence in PVP?
We do NOT say that we never saw eles in PVP.
What We say is that WE NEVER SAW ELES WHO CAN OUTPUT PRESSURE in pvp before SF.

Well it is going to be nerfed any way, so what is the point of us flaming each other here in threads any more ?

Diddy bow · Dec 28, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

SF kinda annoys me in hero battles cus any idiot can do it -.- but im fine with it the way it is because it ownes spirit spam so less people play spirit spam

Blightfire · Dec 29, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Well MS has its use in PvP... Its KD does interrupt the ghost... and if altar is already capped it does do some decent damage against ghost, lol
And I think Air Spiking was doing a pretty good job before SF